Is Auckland congestion charging fair when so many still can’t rely on public transport?

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1. 0:06Speaker 1: Kia ora, I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is The Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. For Aucklanders,
2. 0:18Speaker 1: sitting in traffic can feel like an unavoidable part of life.
3. 0:21Speaker 1: But what if you had to pay to do it?
4. 0:24Speaker 1: Auckland Council is considering congestion charging with three options on the table that could see drivers charged between $ 2 and
5. 0:32Speaker 1: $ 7 per trip. Supporters say it could get traffic moving and raise money for improvements, but critics are asking whether
6. 0:40Speaker 1: we have enough alternatives to make it work. Today on the front page, University of Auckland Senior Lecturer in Urban Planning, Dr Timothy Welch, is with us to explain how it
7. 0:51Speaker 1: could work and what we can learn from cities overseas. So, Tim,
8. 0:59Speaker 1: for people who have heard the term congestion charging but aren't actually entirely sure what it means, what is Auckland actually proposing here?
9. 1:08Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the first thing that we want to be clear with is the difference between a toll, which I think a lot of people are really familiar with and many probably have paid, which is the idea of
10. 1:18Speaker 2: charging for a road or a bridge for the purpose of paying back the cost of that bridge or road.
11. 1:25Speaker 2: Congestion charge is a little different. It's aimed at changing travel behavior. So encouraging people to travel at a different time or take a bus or a train or walk
12. 1:36Speaker 2: or cycle instead of driving into the city at peak hours. Right.
13. 1:39Speaker 1: So what is Auckland Council proposing here?
14. 1:42Speaker 2: Well, there's really three options now from an original six on the table. Two of the options are fairly simple.
15. 1:50Speaker 2: They're just a ring around the city. And so anybody who crosses into the city and crosses that line at rush hour would pay a fee to get into the city.
16. 1:59Speaker 2: And then the third option keeps the ring, but it also charges an additional cost on some of the motorways and arterials that kind of lead into the city as well.
17. 2:10Speaker 2: So a little bit more extensive.
18. 2:11Speaker 1: So what are some of the pros and cons of each of those options?
19. 2:15Speaker 2: Well, they're all pretty similar. So they carry some of the same pros and cons. The kind of the biggest question mark is if you go with the third option
20. 2:25Speaker 2: where there's a fee on arterials or motorways, is are people who are just passing through the city going to get dinged with that congestion charge? And is that fair?
21. 2:36Speaker 2: And is that going to address the congestion problem. Aside from that, there's questions around, do people have alternatives? Can they take a bus or train instead of driving? How
22. 2:47Speaker 2: do tradies get affected? They have to drive in and their work is in a van or a ute or people who work in the middle of the night. How
23. 2:57Speaker 2: are those people going to deal with an additional cost coming into the city? So what was the original thinking?
24. 3:05Speaker 1: And I guess why has Auckland Council moved away from simply just charging people for using a motorway or a main arterial route, for example?
25. 3:14Speaker 2: Yeah, if we only focus on those arterials or motorways, the problem is we have a lot of options to not use those motorways or or arterials. So it kind
26. 3:24Speaker 2: of leads to something that would be called rat running.
27. 3:27Speaker 2: And Auckland Council's modeling found a significant amount of it if we only look at arterials. And those people jump off the motorway and they zigzag through residential neighborhoods that
28. 3:37Speaker 2: really aren't fit for heavy traffic, fast moving traffic. And that can lead to more congestion, more pollution, and a lot of safety concerns, especially for people who live on that street.
29. 3:48Speaker 1: So I suppose some of the modeling suggests that drivers who pay, and we're thinking of either $ 2 or anywhere
30. 3:56Speaker 1: from $ 2 to $ 7, if drivers pay, they could save up to around 12 minutes per trip in peak hour traffic.
31. 4:05Speaker 1: Is that enough, do you think, to change that peak behavior?
32. 4:09Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, there's a couple things happening. So you have to kind of consider what is an average commute.
33. 4:15Speaker 2: A lot of work commutes, in Auckland, generally around 30 minutes in and 30 minutes back out. So if you're looking at it as a 30 minute travel time, then
34. 4:25Speaker 2: 12 minute savings is 40%. That's a pretty significant savings for a couple of bucks or five bucks. I think most people who would save that would probably be willing
35. 4:34Speaker 2: to pay it to shave off up to 24 minutes on a commute for their whole day. If you look at the amount of time people spend already in congestion,
36. 4:43Speaker 2: it's about 66 hours for the average Aucklander per year.
37. 4:48Speaker 2: So that's a massive amount. If we look at minimum wage, that's $ 1, 500 or more in costs. So for $ 5 to come into the city and save that time, I think that's probably a fair savings.
38. 5:00Speaker 1: So what about those people who perhaps might work and live closer to the city? So like, you know, for instance, you pay more in rent so you live in one
39. 5:10Speaker 1: of those fringe suburbs, your Ponsonby, Newmarket, Mount Eden or something like that. Can they now essentially be punished for
40. 5:17Speaker 1: choosing to live closer and escape that congestion in the first place?
41. 5:23Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, there's a trade-off there. So the people in those inner suburbs, they're going to be the ones that are benefiting from things like the CRL that's opening
42. 5:33Speaker 2: later this month and increasing rail capacity by 50%. They're already close to the bus network that already operates very frequently.
43. 5:42Speaker 2: So they do have options. So, yeah, they might face if they choose to drive an additional charge going in.
44. 5:49Speaker 2: But if they do stick to driving and going during the heavy commute hours, then they also benefit from that additional time savings. So there is some additional cost potentially
45. 6:00Speaker 2: for people living closer in if they don't take the alternatives.
46. 6:03Speaker 2: But there's also that benefit as well.
47. 6:05Speaker 1: When we're having this conversation, I see people liken us to London, New York City, Stockholm. Can we realistically, now
48. 6:15Speaker 1: that we've got a CRL... Does that automatically put us in the same league as those guys?
49. 6:20Speaker 2: Yeah, sure.
50. 6:21Speaker 3: Why not?
51. 6:21Speaker 2: We could say we've got a subway now, so we're one of the big cities. But the reality is if we can draw a line around the city and call it a congestion charge, then we're really implementing some of
52. 6:33Speaker 2: the same things those cities are. But what we really need to do well in advance is look at our public transport system and as a whole and who it's serving.
53. 6:42Speaker 2: And if those alternatives are meaningful for enough people, that this doesn't become a penalty for driving or a penalty
54. 6:50Speaker 2: for not having an additional alternative. So those cities put tons of money into public transport before they ever drew that ring around the city. And that's the sort of
55. 7:01Speaker 2: thing we should be doing as well. Right.
56. 7:02Speaker 1: So the real elephant in the room is getting our public transport system up to scratch before we introduce anything like this. Because realistically, there are a lot of people who live in Auckland who just don't have access to
57. 7:14Speaker 1: good public transport or don't want to stand there in the rain and watch the bus go by a couple of times before being able to catch one.
58. 7:23Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. I mean, a full bus isn't very helpful for somebody. So we definitely need that capacity. We need to expand the system so more people have access to it, especially those that have to come into the city.
59. 7:33Speaker 2: And the bigger elephant, I think, is also what do we do with the money? Where is it going to go?
60. 7:39Speaker 2: And I'm sure that's going to be a fight at the national and local level because there really needs to go back into transportation and hopefully public transportation. But we don't have the details on that yet.
61. 7:50Speaker 1: Because generally people don't like paying for something that they don't know what is at the end of it. Yeah.
62. 7:56Speaker 2: I mean, when people pay for transportation, when people pay to drive generally, they like to think that that money is going back into the transportation system and not somewhere else.
63. 8:05Speaker 2: So we'd want to see where that money is going.
64. 8:14Speaker 3: This will really dictate, I suppose, lots of other things.
65. 8:17Speaker 3: How much they have to build or maintain roads, you know, how it literally shapes people's days. You know, you saw how, and I remember in London when this thing came in and it just cleared out the centre of the city somewhat,
66. 8:28Speaker 3: but that was like a flat charge, I think. So, you know, these things really, really have quite substantial impact.
67. 8:33Speaker 2: And people need to be ready for it too, right?
68. 8:34Speaker 1: They need to know this is coming and you're going to have to rethink how you get to work and so forth. You mentioned tradespeople and you've got delivery drivers
69. 8:44Speaker 1: and others whose vehicles are kind of essentially their workplaces.
70. 8:48Speaker 1: Should they receive exemptions or I suppose discounts or do too many exemptions eventually undermine the whole point of congestion charging?
71. 8:58Speaker 2: Well, what's really surprising about Auckland's modelling, and I think it is realistic, is that It only charges about 3% to 7% of the trips coming into the city, but
72. 9:09Speaker 2: it achieves a 30% reduction in congestion. So there is a lot of room for concessions and exemptions, certainly delivery
73. 9:19Speaker 2: trucks coming into the city, some tradespeople, lower-income people, people with disabilities, seniors. They should be eligible for discounts, and
74. 9:28Speaker 2: I think even with those discounts, there's plenty of room for improvement in congestion.
75. 9:34Speaker 1: Those other cities that I mentioned have kind of made congestion-charging work, you know, your London, Stockholm, New York City.
76. 9:42Speaker 1: They've obviously paired it with major public transport upgrades as well, and we've already mentioned that. But what else might they have gotten right and learned from their mistakes that Auckland can then implement?
77. 9:54Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if you go back to what they put into the network and to implement, before they actually
78. 10:02Speaker 2: implemented a congestion charge, if you look at something like London, we're talking about 500, 600 additional bus services leading up
79. 10:11Speaker 2: to the congestion charge, big investments in the tube. New York itself, $ 15 billion in investing in public transport, walking
80. 10:20Speaker 2: and cycling, and alternatives to parking and all sorts of things that they took out years in terms of a loan or bonds well in advance to really bulk up
81. 10:32Speaker 2: the alternatives. So that's really kind of the key lesson is you have to provide those alternatives. You have to be clear about what they are. You have to message the public and then the benefits will flow from there.
82. 10:44Speaker 1: What could the consequences be if we introduce congestion charging before making sure that our public transport system is up to scratch?
83. 10:52Speaker 2: I mean, right off the face, you're going to get public backlash. People are going to see the same public transport system, the same alternatives or lack of alternatives, and
84. 11:03Speaker 2: then see an additional charge. And it's going to feel punitive.
85. 11:06Speaker 2: It's going to feel like a punishment for driving. And that's really not you know, the idea behind congestion charging.
86. 11:12Speaker 2: It's not meant to be a punishment for anybody who wants to or has to drive. It's supposed to be a benefit for everybody in terms of less congestion, less
87. 11:22Speaker 2: air pollution, less need to drive if you want to have that alternative. So the last thing anybody would want to do is make this look like, you know, something
88. 11:34Speaker 2: that is punishing just drivers rather than a benefit to everybody in the city.
89. 11:38Speaker 1: Yeah, if you were sitting down with an Aucklander who currently drives to work every day and will be hit with those congestion charges and they're thinking, well, isn't this just another tax on me? I'm having to pay petrol tax.
90. 11:50Speaker 1: I'm having to pay, some people pay road user charges and now this is a further thing just because I'm a taxpaying citizen going to work in the city and it happens to be in that area. What would you
91. 12:00Speaker 1: say to them to convince them that congestion charging could actually be worthwhile?
92. 12:05Speaker 2: Yeah. I'd even go back a little bit and push back a bit on the idea that the driver is paying for every bit of their driving already. We already
93. 12:15Speaker 2: saw a rollback of the fuel tax that was proposed for next year from $ 0. 12 to $ 0. 05 in another additional year.
94. 12:25Speaker 2: So we're already plugging a huge gap in how drivers pay for the road network to begin with. We're already funding at about $ 3 billion out of the crown money
95. 12:34Speaker 2: and we're adding additional $ 1. 5 billion. So there's already a pretty big gap between the cost to the public and
96. 12:42Speaker 2: the cost to a driver for driving. And this, again, really isn't meant as an additional tax. It's meant to provide a benefit to drivers, but to a lot of
97. 12:54Speaker 2: people in the city. And so, yeah, it could feel like that initially. But the idea is that a little bit of money goes a long way here in benefiting a lot of different people.
98. 13:06Speaker 1: When it comes to the term peak times... I noticed that there aren't actually any solid, you know, from 7 to 8 or 7.30 to 8.30 or something like that.
99. 13:16Speaker 1: Is that because essentially if you do say, look, peak times is 7 a.m., then everybody starts driving on the roads at 6.30, you can then change what the peak time is?
100. 13:28Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, peak time moves. It used to be rush hour, literally. But over time, it's spread out and now it's peak hours. And typically we look at peak
101. 13:38Speaker 2: travel times from 7 a.m. you know, almost up to 10 a.m. It can last that long. But, you know, in a way, the idea of having flexibility is a
102. 13:49Speaker 2: good thing. For one, if we set a limit and say it's a certain period of time and people adjust their driving to be earlier or later, that's actually a good thing. That's kind of what the congestion charge is
103. 14:00Speaker 2: meant to do. But at the same time, I think there's some additional details the city still needs to work out to figure out You know, what is the optimal time to actually charge people? And I would imagine be
104. 14:10Speaker 2: a sliding scale. So if it's a little bit off the peak of the peak, then it'll be cheaper. If you travel at the exact worst time to go into the city, then that charge would be a little bit higher.
105. 14:21Speaker 2: So it should work on a sliding scale rather than just one fee that people pay.
106. 14:25Speaker 1: We've spoken about public transport and the efficiency of it.
107. 14:30Speaker 1: Do you reckon that we're missing out? Are there any examples around the world of other incentives that may get more people onto public transport?
108. 14:40Speaker 2: Well, yes, certainly. We could reduce the cost of public transport.
109. 14:45Speaker 2: That's a big one. There are people that really struggle to pay for the fares as they are, or are often ranked as one of, at least Auckland is, one
110. 14:55Speaker 2: of the highest public transport fare costs in the world.
111. 14:59Speaker 2: We're anywhere from number seven in the world to number three, depending on how you look at it. So reducing that beyond just expanding service, beyond just more frequency, making it
112. 15:10Speaker 2: more affordable, especially for the people who are struggling to pay those fares to begin with, would be a huge benefit.
113. 15:16Speaker 2: So there's lots of ways that we can actually benefit people that aren't just more of the public transport or more cost to driving, but making it more affordable for everybody.
114. 15:26Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Tim.
115. 15:27Speaker 2: My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
116. 15:32Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
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